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Tired of being made to feel guilty

At our vet's request, we decided to breed Caeleach and Seamus. We were going to have both fixed, but our vet wanted a puppy, from our dogs, and their ARE no F1b Labradoodles in all of Western NC. The only one we've seen was the rescue in Waynesville.

Anyway, we think the breeding took. Now, just about everyone we know harps on the number of puppies, in rescue. yes, I know that!

However, we have more people that want our puppies than there will be puppies. The vet said that Caeleach' and Seamus are wonderfully healthy and have terrific temperements, so he wanted to buy a puppy, from us. I couldn't think of a better recommendation, for breeding.

Our contract will have a "take back" option. If the people do not want the dog, at any time, I will gladly take it back. Also, we will require that all of our families take their puppies to obedience.

Just wanted to vent. I am a firm believer in spay/neuter and don't need the lectures!

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by ToddCandianChocolateLabradoodles on July 7, 2009 at 11:15am: I mean nothing personal, I dont know or judge you. You say you have breeding experience so presumably the whelping should go well, and you and your vet can handle anything unexpected, and puppy socialization should be no problem. So I wish you the best and to enjoy the experience.

Now as a professional scientist, I have to chime in here. You can not say you are 99.9% sure there will be no health problems. You cant "see" carriers, and your genetics background should tell you that. You have to test to know that. Don't tell the potential new owners of the puppies that you are 99.9% sure that they wil be healthy, because you can't be.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeannine on July 7, 2009 at 11:33am: ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jacquie Yorke Blake & Bella on July 7, 2009 at 2:02pm: I have expressed nothing here that has been disrespectful towards others, confrontational or anything less than the absolute truth....If you don't want to hear or see other people's opinions then DON"T POST subject matter that is destined to be controversial.......I think that emotions and delivery are easily and at times grossly misconstrued in a "written medium" where everything is left up to the reader's interpretation....; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Ann Bankert on July 7, 2009 at 6:20pm: Gail, I am so surprised that you would say that you are 99.9% sure that we will not have health problems of any magnitude.
then tell us that your major in college was microbiology with a genetics minor. !!!!

You should know that even with generations of testing behind a particular dog, the offspring can still have a genetic condition. Testing is so that we can go forward with the best we have, no dog is perfect. Mother Nature, can come along and kick us in the pants, That is why we "breeders" offer Health Garantees, with replacement clauses or monetary clauses. If we anticipated perfection there would be no need for written Garantees.
You should know that some genetic problems are recessive, the parent will not display any sign of a problem. But bred to another dog that also carries the same recessive gene, now, you have a problem. DNA testing is soooooo important. Please do not insult our intelligence.

Up to now it was you vet that upset me, now you have put yourself in the same boat as the vet.......; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by LuvMyAbby&Kaela on July 7, 2009 at 12:42pm: This whole conversation is disturbing on so many levels.

Yes shelters are full...this is tragic. How do we even come close to the remedy? By not having another dog bred anywhere ever again. No free farm puppies. No $2500 multigenerational Australian Labradoodles. None. No breedings. Then the only way for a human to get a dog is from a shelter. That is totally unrealistic. Ideal but unrealistic.

The shelters are not full because the parent dogs werent "health-tested". They arent full of dogs because they were abandoned due to a bad gene pool. They are there because A-holes we call our fellow man abandoned their own pets! Maybe they are the ones that should be euthanized! (Ok harsh I know.)

I am not trying to play devils advocate. Abby is your $2000 puppy from a reputable breeder that did all the health testing of the parents and has the certificates from optigen labs, this lab, that lab etc etc.... I wanted it that way.

But my Bailey is a homemade, handmade puppy by yours truly. I had his mom. Friend had his dad. My mom, DHs mom, Me. and 3 others got one of these wonderful healthy puppies. 5 out of the 6 are now pushing 13 yrs old - no issues. My moms dog RIP died last year...he was the only one who had late life diabetes.

So I do not think that $2000 puppies should be the only ones allowed to be brought into this world. And yes I think you can get health without the certificates.

Also why would anyone assume because he is a vet he should have scruples? (which he doesnt btw) 2 Vancouver vets (husband and wife) were thrown in jail when their farm was raided by police because of complaints of animal cruelty. They found starving horses with imbedded bridles that had to be shot. And my vet charged me $25 just for sticking a finger up Baileys rectum (on top of the regular exam fee ...that finger was a $25 extra) So ya, vets arent anything to jump up and down about in the honor department)

But agreeing with my friends here too....if you even thought that the dog had a health issue (which you did at one time) - you shouldnt be breeding it at all. Your vet may have pushed you into it for his own greed. He should have saved his reputation and paid the $2000 if he wanted a puppy.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeannine on July 7, 2009 at 1:39pm: Sherry,
I don't think that you understand the real point of view here. Yes, maybe we do shit all over the ring box but at least we do have that diamond.

The only reason where I posted that poster, which was not from me unfortunately, is not to attack you or anybody but just to show with more clarity the point of view that Lynne and, yes, Jacquie and Karen and most the other person are trying to demonstrate.

If Gail want to breed her doodle, nothing and nobody can do anything about it. It's hers and she have all the right to do what ever she want with that dog except abusing and being cruel with her which NOBODY never though of. She decide to do it and it is her right, like it or not. The reason for that debate is that the idea was from her vet which is wrong, very wrong and that she know what the consequence can be. About the vet. the comment of LuvLittleAbby explain it very well.

Yes, we do work hard to try to save as much of doodles as possible and it is very sad to think that maybe, I repeat, MAYBE, someday one of those pups will ended in a shelter or to be as sick as Jackdoodle is. I do not know a lot of people who are dedicated to their dogs as Karen is. Most of those sick doodle ended being PTS.

Now, I'm not saying that Gail's pups will certainly be sick, I'm saying that the chance that that happen is a lot more than with a puppy who come from a good breeder who test and test and test and test again all the pup's line.

Yes, you're right, sometime we do get very frustrated and we speak with more anger than most of the rest, but if we don't speak loud and fight for them who will???

So if that is shitting around the diamond box... well sorry but I will continue to my last breath.
And, by the way, the poster is not for Gail but her vet.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jeannine on July 7, 2009 at 2:01pm: Thank you for your opinion.
I will be 63 years of age soon, and all my life I try to be nice and kind to people, not to disturb of go against their opinion not to hurt anybody. The knife, my dear Sherry, I had to fight against more time that you even can't imagine. I did run, fight and the result I was the one who got hurt and hurt and again. So please do not tell me that not expressing my opinion is not right. I did do or say anything to attack anybody, I just express my opinion and because it is not yours or the way you wanted to be you are the one who gave me shit, by the way your own expression.

So, no it is not worth to express ourselves here because only your or you pair have the right to say what ever you want and us who do not agree have the only choice of shutting up.

So yes, thank you for your opinion.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Gail Notestine on July 7, 2009 at 1:33pm: Guys,
thank you for reminding me of WHY I removed the forum from MY site.

Outta here!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by LuvMyAbby&Kaela on July 7, 2009 at 1:48pm: Well that is not right either Gail!! You put out the statement that you were breeding your dogs because obviously you felt you wanted the attention/advice/opinions/blessings whatever your reason was to post what you did. Then you DIS the whole forum? Not cool at all.; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Lorraine Bromley on July 7, 2009 at 4:19pm: I would just like to say that I to some degree feel guilt and shame for buying a dog, period. I never thought I would purchase a commodity that is widely available. I did it for purely greedy selfish reasons. I still love my shelter dog and her sister we had to rehome (she is old and happy too) I loved my friends home made mistake pups that we had until they were stolen from our property (they looked like purebred labs)
I would never breed my new baby boy and he was fixed as soon as he was big enough even though he had genetic testing of his parents.
I would never breed my other dogs even though they had great temperments and were adorable in their uniqueness, something purebred breeds seem to lack in looks.
I needed to find the best breeder for my golden doodle AFTER I made the decision to buy a golden doodle . I appreciate that I could find a breeder that had genetic testing of the parents and that the parents were pure bred so I knew what I was getting. I was also happy that the breeder has had a breed standard with her golden doodles that I wanted. I also was happy that based on the past litters our doodle will LIKELY be non to low shedding.
I would not go to the local pet store to buy their doodles at a lot greater savings not knowing any history of them.
I don't like the idea of anyone breeding.
BUT here I am selfish and greedy and that is the truth like it or not; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Stella on July 7, 2009 at 7:37pm: Gail, it is such a shame that your vet pushed you into breeding your two dogs when you went to him to get them neutered. I agree with the other posts, that is totally unethical and he should be reported. Whatever you decide to do with your dogs is your choice, and I wish you luck if they do end up having puppies. But, professional breeders are breeders for a reason, they often invest many years of time and money to find the right dogs to breed, that have a proven health and temperament history, this is why they have the ability to offer a health gurantee etc etc. There are plenty of good breeders producing F1b labradoodles throughout the US and Canada, many of whom will fly a puppy to the right owner. Your vet and your friends only have to look on Doodlekisses to find them!; ▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Maryann,Roo and Tigger on July 8, 2009 at 1:14am: Okay, I think I will give it one more try. We have too many dogs (cats, humans, living things) that are not wanted or well cared for. There are several driving factors to this social truth: greed (puppy mills), selfishness (puppies, children aging parents, whatever, take away from the caregiver's personal time), poor choices made by uniformed, poorly educated ( educated in how much care a living thing requires) and a general growing lack for respect of life. Gail has shown herself to be a compassionate nuturer with dogs, parrots and humans. We have no reason to expect she will be otherwise with ONE litter of puppies. She has joined DoodleKisses to be a member of a doodle community and she trusted with us with what she admitted was perhaps not the most well thougt out decision of her life. However, she clearly intends to make this decision have the best possible consequences, It is not any more likely that one of these puppies will end up in a rescue than a puppy from a "responsible" (one who did the appropriate testing, and had a long planned and debated mating). I, for one, have made my share of less than excellent decisions. The right thing to do is to own up them (as Gail has) and learn from them (she intends to neuter after one litter or if the first did not take). We would all do much more good sending as little as $1 a month to local shelter or a letter to the editor of a local newsaper ,educating about signs of a puppy mill or the benefits of adopting from a shelter, than we are doing with all this with all this bickering. We all agree on the basics, too many homeless dogs, too many feckless owner, Responsible breeding takes genetics into account. Let's give it a rest and welcome Gail back to our DK community; ▶ Reply to This